I am giggling with delight over all these charts and findings! Thank you for taking on my question FULL TILT, Chris. Of course, this leads me to many more questions: like how many artists get their first major record deal *after* age 30, and many more. But I won't ask you to go down more rabbit holes. And thanks for the Jane Remover recommendation. Digging her sound and now following :)
You (and Thea) might be interested in the work of David Galenson, an economist who looks at the question of human creativity. He divided artists into two groups: conceptualists, who make radical innovations in their field at a very early age; and experimentalists, whose innovations develop slowly over a long period of experimentation and refinement. Picasso's greatest work, for example, comes early in his life while Cezanne's most prized paintings are from his last decade. It's really fascinating stuff.
Galenson used two metrics to track when artists did their "best" work: he looked at auction prices and at scholarly discussion, and found a pretty high correlation between the works that scholars are most interested in and the ones that the market values the highest.
I wonder if it would be possible to similarly correlate critical assessment with charts and album sales, perhaps using Metacritic and Allmusic?
And, yeah, “scholar.” Galenson went by which works were reproduced in textbooks, exhibited in museums, and discussed in other scholarly works, and how often. Art History has clearer markers of expertise than rock/pop music criticism, though. And he was writing in ca. 2000 when it was easier to parse the discourse.
I feel like jazz labels have figured this out - Lee Konitz, Paul Motian, Charles Lloyd, and Pharaoh Sanders all had successful runs as late career masters, and it wasn’t just as nostalgia acts.
Nov 10, 2023·edited Nov 10, 2023Liked by Chris Dalla Riva
I am 69 and I Iisten to every genre and age of albums. I am definitely an album spinner, have always been, my first LP was Best of The Bee Gees. A full length collection of singles that I heard as an album. This morning I am listening to Give Em Enough Rope, and then sampling some new releases . Next up in the queue is Rick Ross and Meek Mill on their album Too Good To Be True. All of that rambling leads us to the conclusion that this old man listens to everything from top 100 to obscure, classical to rap, new music to old music to reissued music. I love it all.
‘Hackney Diamonds’ is the latest example of an album which proves your point that late efflorescence is more than possible after a youthful peak, Chris
Worth keeping in mind -- it's a bold new millennium, and who knows if the same trends will repeat. I suppose what I'm really wondering is that it seems like many life milestones in life seem to be pushed back for millennials and later, so could music success as well, a bit? Time will tell.
I am giggling with delight over all these charts and findings! Thank you for taking on my question FULL TILT, Chris. Of course, this leads me to many more questions: like how many artists get their first major record deal *after* age 30, and many more. But I won't ask you to go down more rabbit holes. And thanks for the Jane Remover recommendation. Digging her sound and now following :)
When I have a moment I can link you to the spreadsheet
You (and Thea) might be interested in the work of David Galenson, an economist who looks at the question of human creativity. He divided artists into two groups: conceptualists, who make radical innovations in their field at a very early age; and experimentalists, whose innovations develop slowly over a long period of experimentation and refinement. Picasso's greatest work, for example, comes early in his life while Cezanne's most prized paintings are from his last decade. It's really fascinating stuff.
Galenson used two metrics to track when artists did their "best" work: he looked at auction prices and at scholarly discussion, and found a pretty high correlation between the works that scholars are most interested in and the ones that the market values the highest.
I wonder if it would be possible to similarly correlate critical assessment with charts and album sales, perhaps using Metacritic and Allmusic?
I have to check this out. This is a brilliant idea
Galenson’s work is right up your alley; I hope you enjoy it!
This is juicy. And the findings could change how musicians / labels market their products. How one defines "scholar" would be of particular interest.
And, yeah, “scholar.” Galenson went by which works were reproduced in textbooks, exhibited in museums, and discussed in other scholarly works, and how often. Art History has clearer markers of expertise than rock/pop music criticism, though. And he was writing in ca. 2000 when it was easier to parse the discourse.
Agreed about markers of expertise. Does a 16 yo TikTok influencer with 500k followers sit at the same table as Ted Gioia?
Ha! Hard to say, but I would love to sit at that table, too, just to hear what would get said.
😄
I feel like jazz labels have figured this out - Lee Konitz, Paul Motian, Charles Lloyd, and Pharaoh Sanders all had successful runs as late career masters, and it wasn’t just as nostalgia acts.
I am 69 and I Iisten to every genre and age of albums. I am definitely an album spinner, have always been, my first LP was Best of The Bee Gees. A full length collection of singles that I heard as an album. This morning I am listening to Give Em Enough Rope, and then sampling some new releases . Next up in the queue is Rick Ross and Meek Mill on their album Too Good To Be True. All of that rambling leads us to the conclusion that this old man listens to everything from top 100 to obscure, classical to rap, new music to old music to reissued music. I love it all.
That’s awesome. I hope to be like you one day. From the people I know, you are an outlier
You can follow some of thoughts on music at https://weatheredmusic.ca
My first concert was Andy Gibb 🙂
‘Hackney Diamonds’ is the latest example of an album which proves your point that late efflorescence is more than possible after a youthful peak, Chris
Talk to Paul McCartney about ageism and Pop music.
Worth keeping in mind -- it's a bold new millennium, and who knows if the same trends will repeat. I suppose what I'm really wondering is that it seems like many life milestones in life seem to be pushed back for millennials and later, so could music success as well, a bit? Time will tell.