Soundtracking the Internet: A Conversation with Kevin MacLeod

Kevin MacLeod's music has been heard billions of times, yet you probably don't know his name.

“Can we do the interview now?” the voice asked me through the phone. “I was thinking we would find a different time for the actual interview, so I could prepare a bit,” I answered. Silence. I looked at the clock and knew I had a half hour free. “You know what? Let’s do it.” I am usually all about hyper-preparation, but when you have someone interesting on the phone — someone whose music is the most recognizable on Earth — you have to throw caution to the wind.

And that’s how my carefree conversation with Kevin MacLeod began. MacLeod has made music for a long time, but his compositions became well known when he started uploading them to his website in the 1990s for anybody to use for free. After YouTube launched in 2005, MacLeod’s music began soundtracking many popular videos. More recently, his songs have done the same on TikTok. Over the course of an hour, we spoke about what it’s like having your music heard billions of times, how you make money when you give things away for free, and why he believes we should get rid of copyright.

A Conversation with Kevin MacLeod

Like many people, I first came across your music on TikTok. In fact, I know the first song that I’d heard of yours was “Monkeys Spinning Monkeys”, a whimsical instrumental heard in almost 30 million posts on the platform —

Millions of posts and billions of plays, yet it’s somehow never appeared on the Billboard’s TikTok charts. I mean I get it. What I’m making is a different sort of thing than what Billboard tracks.

Did your music end up on TikTok because it is free to use?

Yes. And before TikTok it was all over YouTube for the same reason. But since some of these recordings have become so widely known, they’ve taken on a life of their own.

Definitely. Is that strange? It’s like some of your compositions have become cultural memes.

I never planned for that to happen. When you write music, you just want people to hear it. So, I’m very happy about how well known my songs are.

You are a very prolific composer. In fact, I see almost 1,500 recordings on your website. Are there any specific compositions that you've been surprised have become popular?

Not anymore. I used to be surprised when I’d write a really beautiful piece and nobody cared. But, no, I can’t really tell what’s going to work and what’s not going to work.

Let’s talk a bit about your background. How did you get into making music?

I started recording music to cassette tapes back when I was 18-years-old. I then ended up going to college for music education. While I was there, I learned a lot about composition and how to play instruments. Then I got a job doing computer programming and didn’t do much with music for ten years. But I noticed an issue.

It was the 1990s. In my work as a programmer, I came into contact with some multimedia people. At that time, if you needed royalty free music for a project, you had to pay $100 to $150 per month to get a subscription to some royalty-free CD service. I thought that was ridiculous. So, I started writing some music for a friend to use and just put it online on a whim. I figured if it was useful to one person, it might be useful to other people.

Kevin MacLeod, the single man behind the internet’s music [Credit: First Run Features]

When YouTube came along, it went from a few media professionals needing music to everyone needing music. And my music was kind of already on the shelf waiting. So, some early YouTubers started using my stuff. Other people took after them. Then everybody was using it.

That’s fascinating. It’s like a combination of being free and the first entrant set you up for success. The “free” part to that equation is definitely as important the “first entrant” part, though. If your music is all free to use, how do you make money?

It is absolutely free to use. I ask people to credit me, but I've never sued anybody for not crediting me correctly. If you use my music, I am straight up happy. But I make money in very strange ways.

Can you specify any of those “strange ways”?

Sure. In the U.S., you are legally allowed to give up your rights to a creative work. In Germany, though, you cannot give up those rights. So, while my stuff is 100% free in the U.S., I still collect money in Germany and some other places.

Is that the main source of your income?

Yup. That’s the main one right now: international collections based on television and radio usage of my songs.

If every country functioned the same as the United States, would you be fine making literally $0 from your music?

Even if that was the case, I wouldn’t be making nothing. I’ve got a Patreon with almost 100 subscribers. I used to run ads on my website. That’s how I supported myself for like ten years. I also have a YouTube channel with over 600k subscribers. I run ads on there. I’ve always been pretty diversified, so if one thing collapsed, I’d still be pretty much okay. I’m also not spending a ton of money. I don’t have a private plane or anything [laughs].

MacLeod’s popular YouTube page where he posts tons of music

When I speak to people who make royalty free music, they are usually very passionate about the public domain and intellectual property reform. Do your interests also cross into those areas?

I am so passionate about the public domain. The public domain is how societies move forward. Right now, copyright is blowing us societally. When I started making royalty free music, I thought it would catch on. If you want your music to be heard, you should make it as frictionless as possible. I thought everyone was going to be doing this. Some some people have, but the music industry still exists. Universal Music Group is still doing what they do.

It really fascinates me that you are able to make a living as a musician by allowing anybody to use your music free of charge. There are hundreds of years of thought and legal precedent outlining the idea that without copyright protection artists will disappear. It seems you don’t buy into that notion.

In the fashion industry, you can’t copyright the design of a jacket. Does that mean people don’t design clothes anymore? No. There is good money in fashion. You just can’t protect the concept of a slightly wider cuff in the court system. That hasn’t affected the fashion industry’s ability to make money. We can just get rid of copyright and the world will continue turning.

So, is your perspective that copyright terms should be shortened? Right now, they are very long in the United States, namely the lifetime of the author plus 70 years. Or is your perspective that copyright is completely unnecessary?