"Scenes from an Italian Restaurant" is SOOO epic. It wasn't ever released as a single I guess, so doesn't appear on the charts (which are admittedly a VERY imperfect way of judging what makes something a pop song) — but it's clearly had the longevity and popularity to qualify!
And "Paradise by the Dashboard Light" classic. I think I'm going to have to do a whole episode on Bat Out of Hell sometime. Probably the most epic pop ALBUM of all-time, and remained on the charts for like 10 years (at least in the UK).
For sure! Clear oversight betraying the lack of scholarly rigor here. Structurally epic, plus the vocal harmonies give it that sense of scale. What grade would you give it?
Well, I think Brian Wilson qualifies as a diva, so whatever points that adds,
but without jumping back and forth between the criteria in the post and the comments, I’d give it a 4.5 composite. Tempo changes, lush instrumentation, great vocal arrangements, doesn’t leave you emotionally moved, but less sugary than most BB.
Haha, excellent point. There's pretty large dynamic contrasts in this song as well, so it takes you on quite the journey — a 5 for sense of narrative. I also really love the way the chorus keeps modulating up a whole step to get higher and brighter. Definitely unusual. Definitely gives it such a massive lift combined with the addition of each new vocal layer.
Really interesting and fun article, Ian! I'm a big fan of epic pop music myself and wrote posts on both Bat Out of Hell (part of a series on Todd Rundgren as a producer) and MacArthur Park as they're amazing.
An incredible use of the Richard Harris original of MacArthur Park (my favorite) is an iconic scene in Beetlejuice Beetlejuice - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlOc9eV0dbs
Epic pop songs get used in film and TV a lot, where I often hear them for the first time and then feverishly search for the name of the song. They just grab you and make you feel stuff!
"Not to mention, the guy’s sweaty as all get out and Steinman is bleeding on your keyboard." LOL, I'm loving this already. A big deep dive on Todd Rundgren — the thing I never knew I needed that I definitely need! Thank you!
My thought reading the headline was "Yes of course pop music can be epic" with 80s power-ballads being the first thing that came to mind. But I'd never heard of Donna Summer's nearly 18min MacArthur Park, so big thanks there. Fantastic song, although it's another case of Elegia by New Order — 4min is too short, 18min is too long, give me a ~7min version
True! I was thinking I should have added a column for song length but by the time I thought that it was halfway through and there was no way I was going back through them again lololol
Love the scientific rigor of the 60+ hours of listening 😆
Interesting to parse how much overlap there is here between "epic" and "camp". Campiness is impossible to capture in a rating system, and yet it's easy to eyeball the Venn diagram overlap in this list.
Meanwhile it's easy to pick out the songs on here that are epic but NOT camp -- and, separately, thinking about the deep (and terrible) well of novelty singles that are campy but definitely NOT epic (disco duck, anyone?)
Good point about camp! I agree with your assessment. I feel like to be epic and camp, you need to dial the camp up to 1000 and make it drip with overwrought melodrama. Meatloaf and Steinman are certainly the masters of it.
Oh man, that was by far my favorite song on that album. Definitely epic. I love how over-compressed some of the sounds on that song are, the way they kinda flitter brokenly between your ears. Good build - check. Orchestral instruments - check. Choir at the end - check (although it might just be layers, same effect). The harmony change - check. The screaming - check. Good call!
I'm not certain I understand what this "epic" concept means. The examples cited seem over-produced, over-dramatized and like eating an entire meal of disastrously sweet sugar. Of course I'm familiar with, for example McArthur Park. Is there any person who is actually a musician find that song and it's screamingly overly-dramatic performance performance more interesting and relatable than Webb's songs Wichita Lineman, Galveston, or By the Time I Get To Phoenix.
It's just some fun :). I love those songs too. Not saying "MacArthur Park" is better — it's just more interested in being "epic" (i.e. a grand narrative that goes far beyond the ordinary scope of things). I think it's pretty surprising it was as successful as it was. It turns out a lot of people like overly-dramatic performances!
I don’t think popularity is an index of musical quality nor does it disqualify an artist from being musically significant. It certainly brings about. the temptation for an artist to essentially do the same thing, over and over. Of course actors, dancers and authors are subject to the same illness.
There are many other factors-image, artist’s appeal, artist’s skills (wow,she really sings high notes!);not to mention the money that Joni’s star-making machinery spends on making it all happen. As well as luck, timing and endorsements by well-known artists.
A lot of people like a lot of things. Sounds like an epic quote from J Donald Trump! I;m just one of those crass fools who thinks John Coltrane is more significant than Kenny G.
It's true, but also, being popular is kinda important to being a pop song. That's why I started with Irving Berlin and his rules of pop, which are all about making something to be popular.
Also, I agree that Coltrane is more significant to the history of music and culture than Kenny G — but I'm not talking about significance here, and neither of those are pop. I was simply curious if there was much pop music that could be classified as "epic" in some way, so I came up with a rubric and went looking, and this article is what i found. I thought it was fun, but it's totally cool if you don't!
Fun article! Great job defining what makes a song epic. Here are a few more I'd add to the list:
Band on the Run - Paul McCartney & Wings
Scenes from an Italian Restaurant - Billy Joel
Baker Street - Gerry Rafferty
Paradise By the Dashboard Light - Meat Loaf
You Oughta Know - Alanis Morissette
Ray of Light - Madonna
Livin' La Vida Loca - Ricky Martin
Smooth - Santana/Rob Thomas
"Scenes from an Italian Restaurant" is SOOO epic. It wasn't ever released as a single I guess, so doesn't appear on the charts (which are admittedly a VERY imperfect way of judging what makes something a pop song) — but it's clearly had the longevity and popularity to qualify!
And "Paradise by the Dashboard Light" classic. I think I'm going to have to do a whole episode on Bat Out of Hell sometime. Probably the most epic pop ALBUM of all-time, and remained on the charts for like 10 years (at least in the UK).
Great examples!
You're right about "Italian Restaurant." Never a single but still epic!
"Bat Out of Hell" is definitely worth an epic look!
Not sure how Beach Boys Good Vibrations didn’t make the list in even the Google doc.
For sure! Clear oversight betraying the lack of scholarly rigor here. Structurally epic, plus the vocal harmonies give it that sense of scale. What grade would you give it?
Well, I think Brian Wilson qualifies as a diva, so whatever points that adds,
but without jumping back and forth between the criteria in the post and the comments, I’d give it a 4.5 composite. Tempo changes, lush instrumentation, great vocal arrangements, doesn’t leave you emotionally moved, but less sugary than most BB.
Haha, excellent point. There's pretty large dynamic contrasts in this song as well, so it takes you on quite the journey — a 5 for sense of narrative. I also really love the way the chorus keeps modulating up a whole step to get higher and brighter. Definitely unusual. Definitely gives it such a massive lift combined with the addition of each new vocal layer.
Really interesting and fun article, Ian! I'm a big fan of epic pop music myself and wrote posts on both Bat Out of Hell (part of a series on Todd Rundgren as a producer) and MacArthur Park as they're amazing.
An incredible use of the Richard Harris original of MacArthur Park (my favorite) is an iconic scene in Beetlejuice Beetlejuice - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlOc9eV0dbs
Epic pop songs get used in film and TV a lot, where I often hear them for the first time and then feverishly search for the name of the song. They just grab you and make you feel stuff!
I’ll have to check them out! I don’t know enough about Bat Out of Hell and am excited to learn more!
Here are those two posts so you don't have to search for them:
Bat Out of Hell (the full story behind it, pretty darn wild) - https://rocknrollwithme.substack.com/p/bat-out-of-hell-by-meat-loaf-and?utm_source=publication-search
MacArthur Park (one of my first posts on substack) - https://rocknrollwithme.substack.com/p/macarthur-park-that-7-minute-cake?utm_source=publication-search
Thanks for following me, Ian.
"Not to mention, the guy’s sweaty as all get out and Steinman is bleeding on your keyboard." LOL, I'm loving this already. A big deep dive on Todd Rundgren — the thing I never knew I needed that I definitely need! Thank you!
These people are all major characters besides being great musicians. Glad you're enjoying it.
Great article!
I think that Donna Summer’s “On the Radio” may also fit the Epic category.
nice suggestion!
My thought reading the headline was "Yes of course pop music can be epic" with 80s power-ballads being the first thing that came to mind. But I'd never heard of Donna Summer's nearly 18min MacArthur Park, so big thanks there. Fantastic song, although it's another case of Elegia by New Order — 4min is too short, 18min is too long, give me a ~7min version
True! I was thinking I should have added a column for song length but by the time I thought that it was halfway through and there was no way I was going back through them again lololol
Love the scientific rigor of the 60+ hours of listening 😆
Interesting to parse how much overlap there is here between "epic" and "camp". Campiness is impossible to capture in a rating system, and yet it's easy to eyeball the Venn diagram overlap in this list.
Meanwhile it's easy to pick out the songs on here that are epic but NOT camp -- and, separately, thinking about the deep (and terrible) well of novelty singles that are campy but definitely NOT epic (disco duck, anyone?)
EXTREME RIGOR hahaha.
Good point about camp! I agree with your assessment. I feel like to be epic and camp, you need to dial the camp up to 1000 and make it drip with overwrought melodrama. Meatloaf and Steinman are certainly the masters of it.
Amazing article, and great to critique the pop-as-universally-commercial idea
I feel like Phoebe Bridgers’ I Know the End could count as epic - slow build, tempo changes, esoteric themes, immense key change with screaming
Oh man, that was by far my favorite song on that album. Definitely epic. I love how over-compressed some of the sounds on that song are, the way they kinda flitter brokenly between your ears. Good build - check. Orchestral instruments - check. Choir at the end - check (although it might just be layers, same effect). The harmony change - check. The screaming - check. Good call!
I'm not certain I understand what this "epic" concept means. The examples cited seem over-produced, over-dramatized and like eating an entire meal of disastrously sweet sugar. Of course I'm familiar with, for example McArthur Park. Is there any person who is actually a musician find that song and it's screamingly overly-dramatic performance performance more interesting and relatable than Webb's songs Wichita Lineman, Galveston, or By the Time I Get To Phoenix.
It's just some fun :). I love those songs too. Not saying "MacArthur Park" is better — it's just more interested in being "epic" (i.e. a grand narrative that goes far beyond the ordinary scope of things). I think it's pretty surprising it was as successful as it was. It turns out a lot of people like overly-dramatic performances!
I don’t think popularity is an index of musical quality nor does it disqualify an artist from being musically significant. It certainly brings about. the temptation for an artist to essentially do the same thing, over and over. Of course actors, dancers and authors are subject to the same illness.
There are many other factors-image, artist’s appeal, artist’s skills (wow,she really sings high notes!);not to mention the money that Joni’s star-making machinery spends on making it all happen. As well as luck, timing and endorsements by well-known artists.
Yeah, exactly! Agreed across the board! That's why I thought this was an interesting topic.
A lot of people like a lot of things. Sounds like an epic quote from J Donald Trump! I;m just one of those crass fools who thinks John Coltrane is more significant than Kenny G.
It's true, but also, being popular is kinda important to being a pop song. That's why I started with Irving Berlin and his rules of pop, which are all about making something to be popular.
Also, I agree that Coltrane is more significant to the history of music and culture than Kenny G — but I'm not talking about significance here, and neither of those are pop. I was simply curious if there was much pop music that could be classified as "epic" in some way, so I came up with a rubric and went looking, and this article is what i found. I thought it was fun, but it's totally cool if you don't!