How TV Shaped Music: A Conversation with Mark Malkoff

The author of the new book "Love Johnny Carson," Mark Malkoff stops by to talk about the important relationship between music and TV

If you enjoy this newsletter, consider ordering a copy of my debut book, Uncharted Territory: What Numbers Tell Us about the Biggest Hit Songs and Ourselves. It’s a data-driven history of popular music covering 1958 to 2025.

Today, I’m speaking with Mark Malkoff. A couple months ago, Malkoff offered to send me a copy of his forthcoming book, Love Johnny Carson: One Obsessive Fan’s Journey to Find the Genius Behind the Legend. It initially felt like a weird fit for this newsletter, but I absolutely fell in love with the book, especially since Johnny Carson’s life had major overlap with some of the great music stars of the 20th century. Over an hour, Malkoff and I spoke about The Beatles’ calamitous appearance on The Tonight Show, why Johnny Carson loved Tony Bennett, and the artists he hated having on. If you enjoy our conversation, consider picking up a copy of his book.

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I want to start talking about the arc of music on television. For decades, television was really a place to discover music. Most late-night shows not only had house bands, but they featured up-and-coming artists. Now, many late-night programs don’t feature music at all. Can you give me a short overview of how music has been featured on variety shows over the decades?

Back in the day, since there were only three networks, getting on a television show would literally change your life. Johnny Carson, Ed Sullivan, and some other shows were regularly putting up singers. If you were talented, and they believed in you, they would give you a spot on your show. Every talent scout, manager, and agent watched those shows back then. If you performed well, you were probably getting signed. That’s not the case anymore.

I’m a big Frank Sinatra fan, and I know that his initial big break was winning a talent contest on the radio.

I spoke to over 400 people for my book and podcast. You hear that story constantly. You got on Johnny Carson or some other show, and it changed the trajectory of your career.

Late-night legend, Johnny Carson, with a handful of guests [Credit: Getty]

As you’d imagine, it was hard to get on those shows. They would all have scouts scouring clubs for talented people. If you got an audition, you’d get called up to the seventh floor of NBC and sing for one person in a conference room. Johnny had very little to do with choosing guests. But if he walked by and liked what he heard, he would have you on the next day.

Let’s talk specifically about Johnny Carson and his relationship to music. As you note in the book, “Though music comes with the territory, it was a particularly strong interest of Johnny’s.” Throughout the book, you highlight many of Johnny’s favorite artists. Can you highlight some of them and speculate on why he was drawn to them?

He loved Buddy Rich. Johnny was an amateur drummer. He got to perform with him at some point and was like a little kid with his hero. When Buddy Rich died, it was one of the first times that Johnny lost it in front of the studio audience. He was devastated. He canceled all the shows for a week.

He also loved Joe Williams, Steve Lawrence, and Tony Bennett. Tony Bennett was actually on his very first show. Johnny also liked to sing. He would sometimes say he was a “frustrated singer.” He tried to sing in front of an audience in Vegas, and they started laughing. They thought it was a bit. They couldn’t accept him as anything other than comedian. A couple of months later, when he sang on the show, he had to explain to the audience that it was for real.

More modernly, he loved k.d. lang. He couldn’t get enough of her. When they did the Johnny Carson tribute show on Jay Leno, k.d. lang was there with Bob Newhart and Don Rickles. That’s how highly he thought of her. And if he liked an artist, he would keep booking them no matter what kind of music they made. The Oakridge Boys did 40 shows. The Pointer Sisters did 20.

He’d also let musicians guest host regularly even if they weren’t used to a national audience. Roy Clark guest hosted. So did John Denver and Bobby Darin and Cass Elliot. If Johnny liked you, he would take a chance. You didn’t have to be a superstar.

This world doesn’t really exist anymore. It seems like you need to have already built an audience if you want a record or to be on a late-night show.

That’s true. Johnny launched so many careers. I can’t think of the last time a late-night show truly launched someone. Maybe Jimmy Fallon with Nate Bargatze? Letterman launched Ray Romano and Jim Gaffigan. But those are so long ago.

As a point of contrast, Carson had Bette Midler on and she exploded as a result. Then he had her opening for him in Vegas, and the audience just didn’t get it. But Johnny kept her in rotation because he liked her. She was actually the last guest on Carson’s version of The Tonight Show. She did a song at the desk, and it was magic. I think she won an Emmy for it.

Were there any musicians that Johnny Carson didn’t want to have on his show?

He had his fair share of grudges, but he generally didn’t want artists who were too over-the-top or stimulating because it was so late at night. One time Billy Preston got a standing ovation on the show, but Johnny said to never book him again. He thought it was too much for people drifting to sleep. There were some exceptions. James Brown would appear every once in a while. If you were as big as Tina Turner, he’d make an exception. But it was rare.

He would make exceptions if there was a good gag, though. He had ZZ Top on in the 1980s. They were playing loud rock music. But he just wanted them, so they could do a cutaway afterwards to Johnny and Doc Severinsen dressed in ZZ Top beards.

One of my favorite tales from your book was when The Beatles made an ill-fated appearance on The Tonight Show. Can you tell me about that?

The Tonight Show couldn’t believe when they heard from The Beatles’ manager that John Lennon and Paul McCartney wanted to come on the show. They were going to come on to announce the launch of Apple Corps. Naturally, Lennon and McCartney thought Johnny would be hosting. He was off, though. The host was baseball star Joe Garagiola.